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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:08:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
QFT.
And now what's going to happen to my Vindicator's MWD cap bonus? It'll be useless now when I can just fit an AB. Good job promoting the blob CCP! You should look at issues like server stability, or hell, overview bugs before you even attempt to fix speed tanking. Seriously, speed isn't nearly as bad as you make it sound. If the people who complain about getting popped by nanos actually used "strategy and tactics" like you said, they would have a Rapier or neuts in their gang setups.
What's the point in spending billions of isk on mods/implants when you're at the same playing field as the guy who doesn't have them? What's the point to making isk at all then if you don't utilize it to have an advantage over another player?
I guess we'll be seeing a lot more spidertanking BSes to combat groups of a larger size. Or are you going to nerf that as well?
Epic fail CCP. Make small tweaks first before you plan on changing things that can have unforseen consequences to the combat system. Besides, if you didn't intend speed to get so "ludicrous" why did you give us the option? You're trying to cover up your screw up with another screw up.
This blog needed more thought and foresight before it was released to the public.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:27:00 -
[2]
"That being said, this is what four of us came up with during the course of a mere five hour meeting on the current speed crisis"
^ this made me roflcopter.
This shows you how much thought and time CCP actually put into addressing this issue. Yes, it is an issue and sure changes can be made. But to think that four devs in a matter of five hours can come up with a solution to something that could break many aspects of gameplay is probably the most arrogant and absurd thing I've ever heard.
Maybe with three other people and five hours I can solve world peace!
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:41:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Velvet69
Originally by: DeadDuck I believe that DEVS know how the game is played, ......
How can you say that after a dev posted this ?
o/
Velve
That's so amazing lol.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:43:00 -
[4]
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
And the fact that the large alliances who blob are going "good job". Go figure.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:48:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 25/07/2008 22:49:47
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
And the fact that the large alliances who blob are going "good job". Go figure.
Originally by: RDevz Adapt or die. Cry some more. Would you like a tissue? [Insert demeaning catchphrase that was used when torps/drones/nos/ECM was nerfed here].
The tears. Keep them coming. It's so wonderful to watch.
^ thanks for proving my point. It was even better that a Goon proved it.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
So basically you're arguing that ISK should buy you I-Win buttons? Strangely enough, your alliance has always been an outspoken opponent of people with ISK having titans and caps.... I think I read the terms 'I-Win' and 'ISK' quite a lot from your guys in various discussions.
Ironic, isn't it?
Like I've mentioned before. What's the point in making isk and pvping if you don't plan on outspending your opponent on better ships/mods to give you an advantage?
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Kerfira My post
Nerfing I win buttons is always good. I don't think anyone complains about a reduction in speed for the 25kms interceptor or even the 15kms vagabond. But why does a 4-5kms HAC need to be nerfed? They are certainly killable, even a simple T2 fitted ceptor can chase them down easily. But it does generally require some planning and thought to kill a nanogang doing 5kms. Having been in those nanogangs, there are enough opponents who can take on a nanogang like that.
The question is whether a cruiser SHOULD be able to go 4km/s. As you say, they're killable, but it's not easy to catch them. Question is whether it is too easy for them to get out of tight spots.... It certainly seem that way given how many people use this type of setup.
I really don't think it'll matter either. People will whine for a while, then adapt to the new realities.
After all, the Vagabond's bonuses aren't designed around speedtanking. Any successful Vaga should have a passive shield tank. It pwns.
Yes, cruisers shouldn't be able to go fast.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
Originally by: XxAngelxX I think we all know which group of the groups of people who are for and against this change are the ones with strategies, tactics and experience in PVP. Old school players who think this will put eve back the way it was, you are the ones not adapting, using tactics and strategies. You will continue to be dissapointed. Part time PVPers - the ones who gang up, warp to a gate, get picked off by nanos and post in eve general - you will be happy until a new strategy that works against your massive T1 blobs with capital support and titans and jump bridge capabilities, then you will start whining again.
CCP Dionwhatever (sorry I don't care what you said enough to read your name) thanks for the headsup that our knee jerk reaction, while making more sense than your dear co-workers dev blog in several points which were addressed already in this thread, is going to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Our knee jerk reaction is no where near in comparison to your 5 hour knee jerk blanket changes. The nano tactic evolved due to other changes your esteemed colleagues made to the game (capital ships, cyno jammers etc), different strategies developed from it and many, many hours of PVP went into becoming good at it. If the whiners spent the same amount of time PVPing then they'd be killing nano'd ships.
Blanket changes sending waves through the entire PVP / 0.0 / Lowsec area of the game is not what is needed to combat people who spend a lot of isk on their speed ships. Bring poly stats down to be inline with T2 Nanos, decrease drops on faction microwarp drives and speed mods in the loot tables, and you have a fix.
Pretty much the most ******ed post in the whole thread.
Tell me - did Burn Eden need nano ships in order to be successful in small gang warfare? Were they able to fight (and win) outnumbered?
I find it amusing that nano***s think their nanoships were "tactics". It was just the easiest (and least risky) way to achieve a goal - lose as little as possible. No ****ing "tactics" or "strategy".
And now you're crying. It probably means that CCP did the right thing.
We'll see...
So does that mean blobbing is "tactics"? Case in point this post coming from a Goon saying nanos isn't a strategy.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nemesor
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Ituralde Since 7.5km is a deimos' sweet spot...
7.5km is not great but it isn't bad, plus you seem to be forgetting there will be inertia carrying the Deimos into optimal. Just don't plan to take on anything that's naturally faster than you unless it's multiple-webbed. You shouldn't be able to, anyway.
You are assuming that it is your target that is scramming you. Fact is, your target can be flying with a Noob ship along side of him. A noob ship capable of shutting off your MWD... then webbing you. Yes... you can kill the frigate after you LOCK HIM... but now you have to wait for your reactivation time on your MWD to reset... THEN you have to motor toward your target again. All the while taking fire from your opponent... so even when you DO get into range, you have already been pounded on for enough time to render the fight effectively over.
Very good point Nemesor.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:50:00 -
[10]
I really hate this MWD nerf + Warp Scram boost. You're giving Scrams two functions which seems too powerful in my opinion. Put scripts on Scrams for something like range boost or point boost (I don't know exactly, that's to be worked out), but don't give them the option to turn off MWDs as well. If you plan on doing that then make a new module to shut off MWDs.
And seriously, +500% speed boost across the board for MWDs is ridiculous. MWDs were fine the way they are. If you need to improve ABs then change them, don't fix something that's not already broken.
I haven't had time to test how bad the speed nerf is but I'll be sure to comment on that as well when I get the chance.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tzrailasa Nowhere else in EVE is a single very specialised ship class from a single race required to combat a very widely used tactic! Neither should it be so here!
You forget that MOST recons can still combat a nano ship. A Curse works pretty damn well against most nanos. So does a Falcon. How can you claim only one race's specialized ship can combat against a certain play style when you know that isn't true. Sure, a Rapier/Huginn is more effective but it is not the only ship.
Also I think CCP was stupid when they said "Committing to a fight should mean that you can not extract from it without risk!" because I bring up the argument that:
Does this mean if a ship is not pointed, it should still not be allowed to run away? Should we nerf the Falcons that sit 100+km away jamming their targets while aligned?
So if we do want to follow CCP word for word then running from any kind of fight shouldn't be allowed, it doesn't matter if you're pointed or not.
I agree in some rare cases ships are going too fast, but overall I don't believe the majority are exploited this (CCP needs to give us some data). Also, of course nanos are going to hit hard and run, they're using guerilla tactics. Why do you think it's so hard for traditional military forces in the real world to combat against guerilla warfare (ie Iraq).
No, you're not wrong, but I don't agree 100% with what you're saying as it's showing how a small percentage exploits game mechanics whereas a lot of these new changes effect most of the community (web nerf, warp scram change, etc.)
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 28/07/2008 21:38:05
Originally by: Tzrailasa
If you didn't understand "Proper scouting and not loitering in the same system for more than a few minutes will most of the time see you perfectly safe.", there really isn't much I can do to explain it to you.....
I love this LOL your response to what this nerf will do is that roaming gangs is they will need to....wait for it...LEAVE BEFORE THEY GET INTO A FIGHT????.
lol I agree. This whole thing of "nanos leaving before another force has time to get there and lock" can be applied to any roaming gang with good intel.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco Every ship can warp away from a fight if they are aligned and pay attention. That is not exclusive to nanogangs. Jeez, are you really that noobish?
Ahh, I see you're back at the standard arguments for the pro-nano group. Insults.....
Anyway, no matter how many times you call people noobs or throw other insults, the basic fact that most people know, and CCP too, is that flying a nano-ship makes you magnitudes more safe than other ship fits. This for balance reasons should not be so, this is why it needs a nerf, and is plainly why CCP is thinking so.
You still haven't really explained why nanos makes you MAGNITUDES safer over other fits.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zia Lola CCP here is a suggestion to avoid all these replys and ideas. Make a Blog where players can only answer by yes/no (radio button!!) to the speed nerf. Give it a month time and see the output
My answer will be NO!!! any way not like it is done right now.
Thank you for your understanding
CCP can't do that. That would be too efficient and would be listening to their subscriber base.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco Every ship can warp away from a fight if they are aligned and pay attention. That is not exclusive to nanogangs. Jeez, are you really that noobish?
Ahh, I see you're back at the standard arguments for the pro-nano group. Insults.....
Anyway, no matter how many times you call people noobs or throw other insults, the basic fact that most people know, and CCP too, is that flying a nano-ship makes you magnitudes more safe than other ship fits. This for balance reasons should not be so, this is why it needs a nerf, and is plainly why CCP is thinking so.
To paraphrase Mr. Samuel L. Jackson, "Answers M*********, do you have them?". All I see from you is bullshit and innuendo about supposed godlike abilities that nanoing gives your ship, but you don't explain what actually makes a nanoship better at warping out than any other ship. If it is about getting out, any gang is pretty much equal to a nanogang. Logging off is easy, cloaking is easy, jumping around safespots until aggro is gone is easy. Nanogangs are better at ONE thing. Getting to a position where they can engage instead of completely run away.
^ this.
I still haven't seen a strong argument as to why nanos are so incredibly overpowered.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes. A non-nano gang will pay for it.
That is THE imbalance that needs to be rectified, and which I'm pretty sure CCP is aware of.
Example?
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Commander Tigre
Originally by: Tzrailasa Why should nano-gangs be immune to people defending?
Nobody said a nano gang was immune. It is on the other hand their choice whether or not to fight. All it takes is a rapier/huggin or curse/pilgram in a slower gang and all of a sudden that nano gang thinks real hard about fighting.
I chose this post to clarify again the main difference.
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes. A non-nano gang will pay for it.
That is THE imbalance that needs to be rectified, and which I'm pretty sure CCP is aware of.
Oh, and on the 'let players vote' entries...... A benevolent dictatorship (CCP) is always better than a bunch of special-interest groups throwing insults and demonising their opposition.....
Sorry to say, but bed is calling. Have to get to work early tomorrow.
A non-nano gang who makes mistakes loses a pittance in isk. A nanogang who makes mistakes loses hundreds of millions per ship. Maybe it tolerates a few more mistakes, but any mistakes that cost a nanogang a ship, is vastly more expensive. Is that not a form of balance?
I agree, it's risk vs. reward. You pay all that isk to have a ship that'll give you an advantage. Where is the fun in making everyone equal? Why bother having SP at all if we're just going to nerf everyone to an even playing field? If I wanted that I'd go play some FPS.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:11:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 28/07/2008 22:12:46
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco Any gang who wants to disengage fast can do so, it does not require nanos.
The point, which you're conveniently forgetting, is that nano's can get out WITHOUT being aligned. A small press of that MWD button and you're out of warp scrambling range before your enemies can get you locked. You can then align and warp out.....
A small press of that cloak button... blah blah blah. It's all the same thing. So we should completely get rid of MWD because people are able to get out of range? Or should we just have infinite range warp scrams?
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Tzrailasa
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes. A non-nano gang will pay for it.
If you, like BOB does a lot. Fly with 200 people, then of course you will be more sluggish and not have an as easy option to get the hell out of dodge.
But when you fly with tops 8 people all the time, you have to be mobile to survive. Removing that mobility doesn't solve "the problem", it just creates another.
But if those 8 people don't pick nano-ships then? Then what? Well, of course they can bring half falcons and jam the living crap out of a bigger gang. While using 4 damage ships to take their targets out. Maybe this is what's going to happen then for those who fly in smaller groups. Tons of falcons instead. Guess what you will want to nerf next?
/signed
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
Certainly a lot of people who were only used to dying very very infrequently may well end up dying more often than they were previously accustomed to. But surely that's a pretty small price to pay if there's even a chance that a bit more diversity can be returned to small gang PvP.
The problem is how does CCP intend on doing this by nerfing webs, MWDs, and giving dual functions to warp scrams? Change is good, but it should come slowly, not all at once like it currently has on SiSi.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
[...]they also hold the promise of new and innovative fittings and tactics
Innovative fittings and tactics become pointless when numbers > all.
QFT.
Nanos came about as a response to the blob. If people want to blame someone, don't blame the people who use this strategy, blame CCP for giving people the option to go ludicrously fast. Seriously, if CCP didn't have the foresight or common sense to see that giving people Snake Implants and speed rigs would lead to it being abused then that's their fault. Now they're trying to correct it, but instead of slowly implementing the change to see how this affects pvp in the game, they're just going to change everything having to do with speed.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Aenis Veros Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 23:08:48 Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 23:08:16
Originally by: Si Raven If you've been playing longer, just STFU! You had the same issues before and you managed.
You mean when every ship could fit ECM and NOS was standard-issue on any ship, and damage mods weren't stacknerfed, peak players on Tranq was around 10,000 or when you could fit multiple AB:s and MWD:s, or when even a small group could pop a ship in 5 seconds because it was before the HP-buff. Your argument is the same as Nozh's, and it sucks since the game was completely different then. (If you really were around at that time you would realize it, dear Steam-playing faction warfare loving 3 month old troll-jockey).
Aenis Veros for President!
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:18:00 -
[23]
What ****es me off too is that CCP didn't bother to remirror SiSi for this big test patch. If they wanted it to be effective and accurate you would think they could at least update it... or give us all lvl 5 speed skills and make sure everyone had Cybernetics 5 to put in some HG Snakes and test out the fix to this "ludicrous speed" accurately. But no, they can't do that.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tomic CCP start the downward spiral towards the end of EVE? Calling it here first.
I don't think you're the first Tomic, sorry. People are already calling this the NGE patch.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
Originally by: Si Raven If you've been playing longer, just STFU!
Just hold on there with comments like this.
I think that long time players should have at least equal say and not have to endure "STFU" abuse from the likes of yourself.
I'm all for adjusting the game and making changes to it, otherwise I wouldn't still be here after over 5 years.
But what CCP is proposing here is not adjusting so that people can adapt, they are talking about a serious change in game mechanics. Sometimes, after investing literally years of training in the game, you have to draw a line as to what is adapting to game development and what is simply an over reactionary response to forum whines.
EVE is a cold and dark place, get used to having people, that have the skills to do things that you can't do yet, kill you.
You should adjust to PvP life, not the PvPers being *FORCED* to adjust so that you can grow a pair and finally fight another player like he is an NPC.
EVE is about thinking about how to attack, defend and generally getting ahead in the game. The operative word being "think". If you can't do that, then EVE probably isn't your game because other players in EVE don't think like CCP's AI NPCs, so adapt from your NPC ways.
^ I totally agree.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:44:00 -
[26]
Originally by: manasi Edited by: manasi on 28/07/2008 23:37:16
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: Tomic CCP start the downward spiral towards the end of EVE? Calling it here first.
I don't think you're the first Tomic, sorry. People are already calling this the NGE patch.
get real..the NGE re-did every class, every specialty, the whole game for gods sake (( I was there) and was almost to the pinnacle of that game was supposed to be. I needed two more weeks to be fully templated...)
This changes one factor that they ( CCP, the owners, designers, caretakers of the game) asked US our responses for...in advance...up front.
Like it or hate it at least they have asked. Hell they can/could do whatever the hell they want, it is their game we pay to play it.
Look me up you'll see I started this game in May 2004. Yes i took a break, this is a game....adapt, survive , overcome.
Yes, we pay to play it. CCP wouldn't have a game if we didn't pay them (Auto Assault come to mind?). They should and need to listen to the community. It's a good business strategy.
But CCP shouldn't go and make such huge changes without giving us some sort of numbers about how many people are abusing speed. They should tell us what they expect from the players. This is a sandbox MMO, they give us these options and we do adapt. This isn't a grind like WoW where they give us new items for new levels and new dungeons to get these items in, which then obsolete our old ones. They're taking the nerfbat to some ships that should get nerfed, but they're swinging too wildly and it's impacting other aspects of the game.
The problem is that the people who haven't adapted to fighting nanos have always been vocal on the forums and now CCP is trying to change a large portion of the game which could have unforseen consequences. We simply don't know what will happen. Isn't it better to make small changes first before doing all this wacky stuff with webs, MWDs, and scrams?
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Haakelen Do I have to find that post of that Vagabond fitting? Do I really?
They are doing what they've been known for, shortsighted myopic nerfs.
Yeah seriously. If they showed some knowledge as to what the problem is then I'm sure less people would be annoyed. But the sheer ignorance some of the devs have shown about their own game is shocking.
Just because they are the ones in charge doesn't necessarily mean they're right.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:08:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 00:09:09
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg GM Atropos is completely right:
There was little variety in pvp outside of fleet engagements. It was near risk free nano's zipping around, well nigh uncatchable to anything but other nano's or web specialized ships (whom themselves were normally nano'd)
The problem is only exasperated by people who have the skills and ISK to push the system to the limit, leaving the range of just following a trend and coming near to breaking the physics engine.
CCP has always made decisions based on their desire to see variety: they've never been fans of cookie cutter setups and have always made changes to increase difference of setups and tactics (rigs, overheating, implants, boosters...things that add variety to combat)
I think most everyone can say that the prevelance of nano's has gotten to the piont that something has to be done. CCP ahs done it, but they always nerf hard then adjust. Whether these changes are harsh will be determined by testing AND the player base. SUre, you dont have input now, but Im sure CCP will monitor threads carefully and weigh well thought out arguments based on testing down on SiSi.
Now, whether Jump Bridges have really changed teh dynamic of 00 pvp to the piont that small gangs just cant do anything besides get camped in is a matter of argument. Im sure if its the case, CCP will do something about it in a subsuequet patch. But until that point, CCP knows for sure that nano's are too numerous, too fast, and too invincible to anything except a small handful of tactics and setups.
That's my conclusive post.
And once again explaining that nanos are overpowered but not saying WHY other than them being uncatchable, just like my aligned Falcon jamming at 100km+. NERF ANYTHING THAT CAN GET AWAY!!!!
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Haaklen, you're saying w/o nanos there will be more blobs or that you wont be able to avoid the blob.
Cause I could care whichever was your intent. Avoid the blob with intelligence and roaming gangs will stay in teh same #'s.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
[...]In addition, people will not have to blob to do small gangs or 'avoid the blob'. You avoid the blob by not engaging it, and running away from it if its after you.
[...]If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it
So running away from a blob in non-nano is okay, but running away from the blob is nano is not okay?
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset 'Should' in this case equates to 'what should happen in Eve', which ultimately means 'what CCP wants to happen'. I've never heard any dev suggest that spending any amount of money should equate to a get out of jail free card. Therefore I resectfully suggest that your assertion is unfounded. Personally I always wanted Eve to primarily be a game of skill, having those with the most money being able to **** all over anyone else even if their skills are crap doesn't fit in with my view of what I would like Eve to be, therefore as much as I respect your opinion I do not support it.
I think you'll find in most MMOs it's the people with the most money/better items/more time spent that have an advantage over someone who is "skilled". If you want to play a game that only requires skill and no other factors then play a FPS, but MMOs are designed to factor in other equations.
Besides, what pimped out Vaga is going 10km/s+ with all level 1 skills? Most of those rare pimpmobile cases are from people who have trained up the skills needed to fly the ship so well that it "breaks" the game mechanics.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Pheleus
- Scripted Web's hello this is good 20km range at say -30% effect best solution by a long shot.
Yep. The only problem that people will argue is that "then the nano ship can run out of web range". But it is a step in the right direction. Maybe have something like the effect is boosted another 10% against a ship that has a MWD running? I don't know. It sure beats the wacky warp scram turning off your MWD and -60% web nonsense.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:57:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 01:05:29 Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 01:04:38 Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 01:00:11
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Markas Crais It sure beats the wacky warp scram turning off your MWD and -60% web nonsense.
This part of the nerf is what gets me the most. It's what gives me the biggest impression that CCP threw this shit out, not caring what it did.
It breaks many, many ships. Some unrelated to this entire idea of 'nanos' at all. Some of which were already painfully lagging behind in usefulness. And why? As if the speed changes weren't enough. Boosting Gallente recons? ahahaha. Gallente is the one most hit by it.
I don't like the idea I need to rely on inertia to be carrying me in to range with my blasters. Optimal with Electron IIs and faction ammo on my Mega is 2.6km Void is a bit better at 4.5, so if from 9km I need to keep coasting to get in range of something that can be hitting me from further and kiting me, I find that ridiculous. Sure, I could put on a scram too, but if I'm warping in even 12km away from a ship I need a disruptor on a BS otherwise once I start doing damage it's just going to warp away. And I'm sorry, but after testing, the AB is still too damn slow on a blaster BS to be worthwhile unless you warp in right on top of your target because that -60% web nerf is still hurting me from holding the target in range.
To me, it doesn't make sense to be giving scrams points and the ability to turn off MWDs. Why not give some other module dual functions as well?
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:21:00 -
[33]
Posted this before, but here's my proof that not all nanos are so overpowered!
Nano Ishtar vs. Moros
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:56 Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:22 The people claiming the sky will fall really need to relax. A vast majority of people don't even take advantage of the speed thing. It will barely effect them except they will get ganked less.
It does suck for those who have spent a lot of coin on their nanoship hangar. I get that.
If everything is nerfed evenly you will still go faster than almost anything else and you will still have the advantage over most ships you currently gank in your nano ship (ie: T1's). You might not do 11,000ms anymore.. but realistically that was crazyness anyhow. Why would a big cruiser or worse, battleship, go faster and turn better than a built-for-speed interceptor?? that makes no sence.
The fix needs to be done.. but how exactly is certainly debateable.
You don't get it, because you don't fly nanogangs. Nanoships are extremely flimsy, low DPS ships. They can go about 3.5-5kms generally, and only the insane ones go above 10kms. This is not about saving the insane ones. Nerf em. But if you take a 3.5kms nanoship and reduce it to 2.5kms, it is dead meat. It costs 200-350m and it is dead meat. Any Tier 2 BC will be better to fly. Blobs will always win, even if they are ******edly stupid, since all they have to do is fly ravens and drakes and lob missiles. Even monkeys could do that. The only defence that exists against missiles is speed for a HAC, and now that gets nerfed they lose all reason to exist.
No dumbsh....I mean Draco, YOU dont get it!! CCP already told you and ALl your nano*** buddies that the overclocked speeds break their physics engine. So guess what, they are going to change it wether you fricking like it or not.
The sooner you understand that, the sooner you and your nano*** brothers can click the CANCEL on your accounts.
Thanks for playing and have a nice day!
And what you don't seem to understand is that nerfing everything dealing with speed is also not the answer. Ignorant posts like this don't help solve the problem.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:43:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 02:43:17
Originally by: Battlecheese
Originally by: Arcane Carnage ok rifter started off popping drones, then managed to get an overloaded web on during slow 14k orbit (so i could actually hit it with guns) followed by a overloaded scram. It then proceeded for the next 12 minutes to orbit me while i couldnt actually hit it with anything but a hml which was hitting for around 30 damage and being easily passive tanked unable to mwd or well do anything except watch myself die.
2 mil rifter > 6 bil vaga...
Clearly you have never flown a moa or Ferox? This is actualy what usually happens to a turret ship without shortrange guns.
I think his point is that MWD is completely useless with the new scram feature and web nerf. Clearly, this is a turret nerf as well.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 03:53:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Katarlia Simov Anyone ANYONE who thinks that nano-ships are some kind of IWIN needs to look herder at the mechanics. Assuming we ignore the nano-ishtar, which is overpowered for a lot of different reasons.
Uh dunno. Vagas can kill nano ishtars (if pilot has a clue). Zealot will **** em. Heck even sacrilege can do this or solo huginn. All ships have their natural enemies and ishtar isnt excluded from this. In this case fast gunboats > nano ishtar.
Nono... you missed what i was trying to say. I wasn't saying the ishtar can't be killed by other nanos. Not at all. I was hinting towards the fact that it can achieve fast speed while doing its full amount of damage, and that this amount of damage is probably a lil too large even for a HAC. Context 4tw.
But you can kill an Ishtar's drones and then it has shit damage.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:19:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Evil Pookie I think its safe to assume at this point that noone is reading this thread. Especially not anyone from ccp. But keep the bitter tears flowing, it amuses me
Why would they read it? They wouldn't have made the code and put it on Sisi if they weren't intending to put it on Tranquility. Maybe with a slight figure change in one or two modules. I have never seen CCP roll out an announced patch on Sisi that didn't make it to Tranquility at least 90% the same as announced.
Buy lots of named webs and start trashing those polycarbons gentlemen.
It doesn't matter so much about the webs. They've been nerfed too much that they're not as effective as just putting a scram on to deactivate someone's MWD, unless they're using an AB, which is still a pretty bad mod.
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